Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

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Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by barocca on Sat 09 Aug 2008, 13:59

added mongols as discussed
currently have emailed test pack to orda and jochi,
YOU WILL NEED 7zip to EXTRACT - was only way to get it through hotmail,
7zip is free

install mtw and vI
then beta 8
then the 0901 pack
>>> extract from 7zip archive
then extract from ZIP archive
then go into the folder
then copy all folders and files into the ROOT of MTW - let it overwrite what it wants.

play the game.

will upload tomorrow if necessary. or jochi/orda can email to all and upload if they wish
sleep now
B.


Last edited by ^HUN^ on Mon 18 Aug 2008, 16:22; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Topic title changed)

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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by ^Glyndwr^ on Sat 09 Aug 2008, 17:51

Email received and downloaded mod 09.01.

Run a test custom battle and all working ok.

When members are on msn I can send them a zipfile that will open. (No need to download and install 7zip. Wink)

HUN has it now, just waiting for Kazemoto to log on to msn. Will send to Marcus when he returns in about 2 weeks.

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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by ^HUN^ on Sat 09 Aug 2008, 20:00

All looking good after a few custom trials. I approve the eastern unit used for Korean Guards and Swords, looks the part. Great work!!
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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by barocca on Sat 09 Aug 2008, 20:19

sorry cannot join you today (night your time)
just up getting some pain releif

korean swords - take them off skirmish and let them shoot when they feel like it
ALSO they have 1 ammo - but WILL fire more than one volley!! - any man who does not get to throw will try again later!
(always suspected ammo was handed around - is now proved to my satisfaction)

crossbows - do NOT get into a shootout, use them as support, they have good protection but lousy aim (and will run if someone had curry last night and lets one loose)


i feel that the mix is competitive, but may be underpriced, especially as the yuan, han and song have yet to make a full appearance. POSSIBLY we use the other units for SP only at ths stage - not that SP is yet possible.


Mongol Leader unit is not yet in game - what was name again??

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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by ^HUN^ on Sat 09 Aug 2008, 22:56

Mongol General unit ...Keshig.
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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by ^HUN^ on Sun 10 Aug 2008, 18:04

At present, I would say unit costs need revising.
Korean Spears...
from 225 > 300
Song xbows...
from 250 > 300
Korean Guards...
from 650 > 700
Reason for adjustment is that currently, the player is having his army selection dictated. The introduction of higher priced Yuan units will offset this but I would still do away with +25 and +50 units and keep increments to 100's for ease of selection against total koku. I never liked unit upgrades and the simple buy a no upgrade army makes this mod so playable.
When promoting this mod to new players, this is a feature that I would like to see remain.
Will be interesting also to check how efficient Song cav and Yuan cav is against Yari cav. In a custom I ran, they seemed a bit too good. There are certain people who would be only too pleased to criticise. We can test this.
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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by barocca on Sun 10 Aug 2008, 23:01

can we please change title of thread to 0902 unit discussion??

i have uploaded two patches
0902b - which will overwrite 0902
0902b Korean Spears...from 225 > 300 : Song xbows...from 250 > 300 : Korean Guards...from 650 > 700


and 0902c - which can coexist with 0902b
0902b Song Tribal Cavalry :: from 800 < 700
CAVALRY
YC none (samurai) w10 r24 c26 chg4 att2 def2 arm3 mor6 (SWORD) catt4 cdef normal 1000k
STC none (nix-sam) w10 r24 c26 chg3 att0 def-1 arm2 mor8 (SWORD) catt3 cdef uncontrolled 800k
YIL none (nix-sam) w8 r22 c26 chg4 att2 def1 arm3 mor8 (SWORD) catt3 cdef uncontrolled 900k
YC none (samurai) w10 r24 c26 chg4 att2 def2 arm3 mor6 (SWORD) catt4 cdef normal 1000k

also note the larger diff between YIL run and charge - 4 points - useful to test momentum !!
is 100k a proper difference between YIC and JapYC ?
shouid YIC and JYC be the same price and song tribal then 800k??
maybe equiv the morale between JYC and YIC ??
got to go to work
ht_bow

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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by ^HUN^ on Sun 10 Aug 2008, 23:55

Topic renamed.

From tests so far.....
STC.......I would say at least 800.

Have just run a custom battle with 9.02b.
The increase in infantry costs has improved the army selection. I was going to suggest an increase in melee cav costs, purely to prevent players from taking elite units. With infantry prices suitably increased, maybe the HC units will be ok as they are, but I think a few more tests will give us a better idea.

Will run some tests Korean Guard v Naginata....Korean Swords v Nodachi etc.

We had two CTD involving Satake colours and Minamoto colours. So currently going through the list.
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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by barocca on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 12:42

all factions past #20 can cause CTD's when played as Mongol

i have a few suspect causes and will look for them when i have some time

IN THE MEANTIME
i have made two replacement startpos files download them here and put them in the campmap startpos folder
accept overwrite

they disable all factions above#20
games available are 0902b2 and 0902c2

ht_bow

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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by ^Glyndwr^ on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 13:31

I have downloaded and installed the replacement startpos files........

when trying to start the game I now get........

COLUMN_building_faction_association
Unknown faction specified: column 20,row 8, FN_EGYPTIAN.

The game now refuses to start!!!!!!.

Edit:
Found the problem.
Had only installed the 0902b upgrade.
Was going to test infantry first with this before installing 0902c upgrade.
Now that both upgrades are installed game starts ok.
Factions are limited now......choice looks bare. Smile

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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by ^HUN^ on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 16:34

I agree with your suggestion to bring Song and Yuan cav morale into line with Yari cav. Morale of 6 for both units does seem a better figure.
Strange that you say any faction colour above 20 can cause CTD, I've not found any problem with Taira or Tokugawa colours (my first and second choice if Mongol colours are taken) I've used these frequently with no trouble. Sorry to see them removed to be honest.

OK, I'll download this latest update.

Me and Glyndwr plan to run through the units in one on one match ups, we'll be doing this each night for an hour or so. We need to make sure the units behave as they should in order that gameplay balance is not affected. We will post feedback.
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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by ^Glyndwr^ on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 18:02

Results of single unit tests I carried out today.
Numbers show men left standing in units when route occurs.

Infantry and Missile.

K Guard v Nag............41....11
K Sword v Nod............45....11 (10 killed by missiles)
K Skirm v YSam..........25....10 (5 killed by missiles)
K Spear v WMonk........52....60 (no monks killed ??)
K Guard v WMonk........15....7
K Sword v Nag............52....12 (6 kiled by missiles)
K Arch v SA.............24....30
YIArch v SA.............45....20
SxBow v Port Tep......44....26
S Spear v Ashi............53....19
YIArch v Jap Tep........43....18


Cavalry tests.

YILCav v YCav...........48....18
YIHCav v NagCav.......44....11
MHCav v HSCav..........5....26
STLCav v YCav............8....41

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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by ^HUN^ on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 19:51

Custom tests are a waste of time and are not reliable as a means to balance.
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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by ^Tomisama^ on Tue 12 Aug 2008, 00:45

Was going to do a kill count for individual unit types from yesterdays last battle.
I wanted to get an idea what was working and what wasn’t.

The logfile says that the defenders won, I saw the attackers win.
Were we playing the same game?

Do you have (space)-strictserver in your desktop short cut (only host needs it)?

"D:\Program Files\Total War\Medieval - Total War - SW Beta 8.1- Mongols\Medieval_TW.EXE" -strictserver

You probably do, but have to ask because of logfile report, and because it has happened to me before (loosing and thinking I am winning confused ).
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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by barocca on Tue 12 Aug 2008, 07:33

a lot of things with the game can only be found with experimentation,
those who wrote the game kept few notes, and even fewer were released to the public.
i will try to figure out what is wrong (but it may be an unrecoverable error)

UNIT testing
if you have 2 PC's then try lan matchups,
you want to keep the taisho unit out of combat, because taisho has bonus morale,

try flat ground, clear skies

i would ignore the jav's for the sword unit, i would simply work out what that unit shoud cost as pure infantry,
and then add 100 koku


((remember i think naginata inf are underpowered, maybe the nagainata inf unit could use a +2 mellee??))

got to go
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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by ^Glyndwr^ on Tue 12 Aug 2008, 13:20

^Kazemoto^ wrote:Was going to do a kill count for individual unit types from yesterdays last battle.
I wanted to get an idea what was working and what wasn’t.

The logfile says that the defenders won, I saw the attackers win.
Were we playing the same game?

^Glyndwr^ wrote:logfiles\internet_multi 08-10-08 231657.log
===========================================

Battle Type:: INTERNET MULTIPLAYER
Date:: 08/10/08
Time:: 23:16:57
Host:: ^Glyndwr^
Attackers:: ^Kazemoto^
Defenders:: ^Glyndwr^, ^Evil-HUN^
Victory for:: ATTACKERS
Game Time:: 15 mins 1 secs
Battle Name:: SamWars v0902: ^^coastal assault
Map Name:: ^^coastal assault
Is Custom Map:: NO
Attackers' Florins:: 9000
Defenders' Florins:: 9000
Season:: Summer
Difficulty:: CPU
Time Limit:: No Limit
Game Style:: Last Man Standing
Unit Size:: 60
Limited Ammo:: on
Fatigue:: on
Morale:: on
Restricted Camera:: on
Battle Terminated How?:: BATTLE FOUGHT TO CLOSE
---------------------------------------------------
My logfile shows attacker won

^Kazemoto^ wrote:"\Program Files\Total War\Medieval - Total War - SW Beta 8.1- Mongols\Medieval_TW.EXE
Interesting because I am hosting on a beta_8.0 install with the new patches as barocca asked. Beta_8.1 not installed on this install.
^Kazemoto^ wrote:Do you have (space)-strictserver in your desktop short cut (only host needs it)?
Yes.

^HUN^ wrote:Custom tests are a waste of time and are not reliable as a means to balance.
barocca wrote:UNIT testing
if you have 2 PC's then try lan matchups,
you want to keep the taisho unit out of combat, because taisho has bonus morale,

try flat ground, clear skies
Tests carried out on a LAN connection.
I used single units so they would be taisho units but, the bonus morale would apply to each/all ?

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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by ^HUN^ on Tue 12 Aug 2008, 16:07

The general unit should be taken out of the equation, pick any unit and send it away to the back of the map, then test with individual units, making sure that main army body is far enough away from the test zone.
I stick by what I said, the only reliable tests are online.

I've never been entirely happy with the stats applied, I complained about Naginata back on 9 or 10b. It was supposedly improved but I still think it is overpriced/underpowered. To be honest, I think they went way over the top with cav units. I already posted on .org that Yari cav are overpowered/underpriced when mizu were still discussing the mod. They won't agree (no surprise) but I find it no coincidence that people generally take 3 of these. In fact 11b stats were easily exploited by cav. When I suggested a price hike to 1100 koku I was told the unit had been finely balanced.

The Naginata cost is ok but it definitely needs something, it has to be worth the money. We could test +2, see how they do against Monks.

Thus far I've had my doubts about the Korean Guards (being too strong) but more testing is required before making snap decisions.

Mongol v Mongol should be forgotten about for a while, it is stable and that's all that matters. We now need to pit them unit for unit against Samurai.
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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by ^Tomisama^ on Tue 12 Aug 2008, 22:40

Ah, the last line probably tells the tail study

Battle Type:: INTERNET MULTIPLAYER
Date:: 08/10/08
Time:: 17:20:06
Host:: ^Glyndwr^
Attackers:: ^Kazemoto^
Defenders:: ^Glyndwr^, ^Evil-HUN^
Victory for:: DEFENDERS
Game Time:: 15 mins 1 secs
Battle Name:: SamWars v0902: ^^coastal assault
Map Name:: ^^coastal assault
Is Custom Map:: NO
Attackers' Florins:: 9000
Defenders' Florins:: 9000
Season:: Summer
Difficulty:: CPU
Time Limit:: No Limit
Game Style:: Last Man Standing
Unit Size:: 60
Limited Ammo:: on
Fatigue:: on
Morale:: on
Restricted Camera:: on
Battle Terminated How?:: CONNECTION LOST

Interesting because I am hosting on a beta_8.0 install with the new patches as barocca asked. Beta_8.1 not installed on this install.

I will get that setup correctly then. But looking at my collection of updates, I must admit I am lost pale

2008_SAMWARS_MONGOLS
SW-maps1
mongol_religion_unit_tests
mongolwars01
mongolwars02
^^Maps

What do I need to add to a SamuraiWarlords_beta8 install?
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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by ^Glyndwr^ on Tue 12 Aug 2008, 23:40

See if we can do this the easy way.....

Download the 0902 pack....download link
then extract files and folders from ZIP archive
then go into the extracted folder,
then copy all folders and files into the ROOT of MTW - let it overwrite what it wants.

Patch 0902b - download link
cost changes = Korean Spears... from 225 > 300
Song xbows... from 250 > 300
Korean Guards... from 650 > 700

Patch 0902c - Download Link
cost change = Song Tribal Cav from 800 > 700

RECOMMEND BOTH, they can co-exist
These three download links are here...
http://nomadalliance.darkbb.com/samurai-warlords-f9/samurai-warlords-update-patch-0902-10-august-2008-t207.htm

Download and install ^^Maps from here...
http://nomadalliance.darkbb.com/samurai-warlords-f9/maps-t208.htm

This should answer your question. Wink

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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by barocca on Wed 13 Aug 2008, 01:19

i think Yuan Imperial Lancer Cav cost needs to match Japnanese Yari Cav (is current <100k)
general stats can stay same - YIL(ancer) Cav has >2 morale but <1 def and <1 anticav
i think that evens them out for value, JYC have a better attack againt YILcav, but YILcav have better morale
THEN
DO Song Tribal Lancer Cav stats reflect their value at 700k ? or should they be 800k?

YIL none (nix-sam) w8 r22 c26 chg4 att2 def1 arm3 mor8 (SWORD) catt3 cdef uncontrolled 900k
change TO 1000k
JYC none (samurai) w10 r24 c26 chg4 att2 def2 arm3 mor6 (SWORD) catt4 cdef normal 1000k
STC none (nix-sam) w10 r24 c26 chg3 att0 def-1 arm2 mor8 (SWORD) catt3 cdef uncontrolled 700k or 800k ???

basically YIL and JYC should be pretty much even stevens for who wins,
but Yari Cav should inflict slightly more casualties on the Yuan Lancers
wHILE STC should be viewed as purely tactical cav, to drive away HA's and harrass routers, but unable to take out JYC
ht_bow

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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by ^HUN^ on Wed 13 Aug 2008, 16:14

Until results of direct match ups are tested, I'd not change things. Don't forget MHC which is currently 1000 koku.
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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by ^HUN^ on Wed 13 Aug 2008, 17:14

^Glyndwr^ wrote:See if we can do this the easy way.....

Download the 0902 pack....download link
then extract files and folders from ZIP archive
then go into the extracted folder,
then copy all folders and files into the ROOT of MTW - let it overwrite what it wants.

Patch 0902b - download link
cost changes = Korean Spears... from 225 > 300
Song xbows... from 250 > 300
Korean Guards... from 650 > 700

Patch 0902c - Download Link
cost change = Song Tribal Cav from 800 > 700

RECOMMEND BOTH, they can co-exist
These three download links are here...
http://nomadalliance.darkbb.com/samurai-warlords-f9/samurai-warlords-update-patch-0902-10-august-2008-t207.htm

Download and install ^^Maps from here...
http://nomadalliance.darkbb.com/samurai-warlords-f9/maps-t208.htm

This should answer your question. Wink
And the other update that removes any faction after #20?
(Which I installed yet I still have the full faction list Suspect ) I'll try installing this again.

Edit: Just installed this again and still see all factions.
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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by ^Glyndwr^ on Wed 13 Aug 2008, 19:41

I overlooked the update two startpos files....sorry

---------------------
From baroccas post.....
two replacement startpos files download them here and put them in the campmap startpos folder
accept overwrite

they disable all factions above#20
games available are 0902b2 and 0902c2
----------------------------------------

I think I would have preferred to have kept all the factions and to just eliminate the 'rogue' ones as we found them. Some of the above#20 factions were playing without any problems.

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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by barocca on Wed 13 Aug 2008, 21:59

as i removed rogue factions above the #20 boundary, more failed
originally it was only satake failing remember.
i have some theories, i will try them out when i have time

regarding units,
should STC be 700k or 800k?
should Nagi inf be better attack?
should YILC have equal morale to Yari Cav?
are MHC too cheap at 1000k?
are k'swords overpowered? (remember we need to refrain from firing javs during testing and add 100k to the final agreed value, they only get 1 jav after all)
are k'pole's standing their ground sufficiently?
and k'spears too good with 4 rank bonus?? (should it be 3?)

do we need the Yuan infantry for MP ? (i think no)-(i think the current mix needs a little tweak and is competitive)
i can see a hole or two in Japanese lineup, but i think the Mongol lineup is good.
ht_bow

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Re: Sam Wars/Mongol Wars Unit Discussion

Post by ^HUN^ on Thu 14 Aug 2008, 00:15

I did post a reply but it was lost.....again. I'll try tomorrow.
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