why be you, when you can be new?? UPGRADES!!!

**barocca** on Tue 30 Sep 2008, 22:03

(why be you, when you can be new?? - it's a catch line from the movie "robots")

when the "others" had control of this mod they designed the units to be perfectly matched (ha) without upgrades,
a number of online battles i played i was criticised for upgrading units.

I loved the trade honour for cash option in Shogun, (I THINK we might be able to ACTUALLY DO THAT in MTW too, there is an option for "starting valour")- (a seperate issue - i will experiment later)

UPGRADES
why do we have to play at valour zero?
if we want to spend the money why cannot we hire experienced troops?

opinions please
Upgrades = Good! or Upgrades = a SIN!!

**^HUN^** on Wed 01 Oct 2008, 15:08

Upgrades are a feature of TW that I have hated with a loathing. I didn't like honour upgrades in STW and I detested the inclusion of weapon and armour in subsequent titles. Valour 4 militia sergeants anyone? No thanks.

IMO, units are or should be what it says on the tin. The unit description tells you what they are and weaker units here allows for stronger units there.

Rather than adopt upgrades I would prefer two sizes of unit types with the cost varied accordingly.

**^Glyndwr^** on Wed 01 Oct 2008, 16:17

Upgrades!!===NO!!

Remember the valour 3 CMAA's and the 'spam' upgraded armies that the 'newcomers' brought to RTW etc etc.
The ruination of the MP game IMO.

For me.....you picks your army you fights your battle. Win or Lose.

**^Marcus Cornelius^** on Wed 01 Oct 2008, 20:10

I have nothing against upgrades. Just another option.
It is more difficult balancing factions with upgrades, anyway. Some unts upgraded could prove to be unbeatable or too strong for other units.

Anyway for me upgrades are ok.

Marcus

**barocca** on Wed 01 Oct 2008, 22:01

as long as we are restricting the amount of cash a player has to spend then going for a few upgraded units, and the rest being peasants or having a rump army (small) should balance the equation,

plus in the mod are units all start out very low factors anyway, (i dont have my books to hand at the mo')

i'll have to look through the stat file when i have time, but is there a column that effects how much upgrades cost?
(if so then i think we could do a little balancing to avoid cheap nasty upgrades)

will try to experiment tonight when home and will report findings..

wont be on much for a week or two,
ADSL2 is down here, and we are on a 32kbps modem line until that is fixed, up to 20 working days ... (eeeeek)
)(PLUS the modem line may yet be taken out to allow them to change the copper lines, so i may vanish altogether for a few days...)(
ht_bow

**^HUN^** on Thu 02 Oct 2008, 14:38

I work on telephone cables, twenty days sounds like a hell of a long time, we'd have our asses kicked if we took that long over a job.

**barocca** on Thu 02 Oct 2008, 21:01

telecom australia owns ALL the copper and are forced to lease access to smaller companies at a rate that allows those smaller companies to be competitive,
Telecom also have tp service the copper themselves, and charge a rate for such service that is not prohibitive,

but the governement never regulated how prompt Telecom are to be in providing such service,

SO, if you are a telstra customer, and want to change to another provider the process is

1. intended new provider must, in writing, ask for you to be disconnected from telstra
2. telstra, in writing, notifies provider that you have been disconnected
3. intended new provider must, in writing, ask teslstra to test the lines
4. telstra, in writing, notifies provider that the lines are working
5. intended new provider must, in writing, ask testra to connect the new line
6. telstra, in writing, notifies provider that the line is connected
7. provider can, upon receipt of said notification, activate the service...

bet you a dollar if that had to go through british post it would take 20 weeks...

ht_bow

**^HUN^** on Sun 12 Oct 2008, 00:49

Barocca,
You were wondering about that first battle? That's what upgrades do to unit balance. Unless upgrades are too costly to be worthwhile, the 'militia sergeant syndrome' will simply ruin the game.
The last thing I want to see is a return to the upgrade exploits of VI.

**^Glyndwr^** on Sun 12 Oct 2008, 15:30

I still say this mod should be balanced and played with === no upgrades.

Remember the 4 max rule that came into the games because of upgrades and super units?
We don't want to start introducing those types of rules again.

I repeat, I prefer that you select the best army units, of your choice, that you can with the money allocated.

**barocca** on Mon 13 Oct 2008, 00:50

i am not near home and thus cannot look at log files,

when you say the first battle, which one is that?
what was the result and what units were upgraded please?

i THINK it may be possible to set how much (as a percentage) an upgrade level costs,
i will have to experiment with a couple of vague columns and see what happens,

my goal is to present real value in the upgrade stream, without permitting the creation of extreme units.
B.

**^Glyndwr^** on Mon 13 Oct 2008, 12:53

This battle..

logfiles\internet_multi 10-11-08 224104.log
===========================================

Battle Type:: INTERNET MULTIPLAYER
Date:: 10/11/08
Time:: 22:41:04
Host:: ^Glyndwr^
Attackers:: ^Evil-HUN^, ^Glyndwr^
Defenders:: ^Marcus^, barocca
Victory for:: DEFENDERS
Game Time:: 17 mins 38 secs
Battle Name:: SamWars 908: ^^coastal assault
Map Name:: ^^coastal assault
Is Custom Map:: NO
Attackers' Florins:: 18000
Defenders' Florins:: 18000
Season:: Summer
Difficulty:: CPU
Time Limit:: No Limit
Game Style:: Last Man Standing
Unit Size:: 60
Limited Ammo:: on
Fatigue:: on
Morale:: on
Restricted Camera:: on
Battle Terminated How?:: BATTLE FOUGHT TO CLOSE

Defender had 3 units of K.Skirmishers with 2 upgrades each.

**barocca** on Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:06

AH - are those the very mean skirms that absolutely wrecked my missile line?
they were impressive, and a nasty surprise,
we still won that battle, it was a close run, but we still won
i dont think the skirms were too strong upgraded

i think they were very usefull without becomming game killers,
what we have to watch are the really good units, like warrior monks and yuan guards,
those we would want their upgrades to be expensive.

when i can i will test what happens when i change some values in some unexplored columns in the unit prod that seem to be related to upgrade costs

ht_bow

**^Glyndwr^** on Mon 13 Oct 2008, 14:11

barocca wrote:AH - are those the very mean skirms that absolutely wrecked my missile line?
they were impressive, and a nasty surprise,
we still won that battle, it was a close run, but we still won

No, not the skirmishers that wrecked your missile line.
Marcus had the upgraded skirmishers and he was on your side.

**^HUN^** on Mon 13 Oct 2008, 16:44

My skirmishers were not upgraded, they were attacking ashi archers which is a kind of no contest and the result was as expected. The valour 2 skirmishers on the other hand, trashed unit after unit of korean guards which inevitably caused the rout among the attackers infantry.

**^Marcus Cornelius^** on Mon 13 Oct 2008, 20:30

I upgraded 3 mongol skirmisher at val 2 to obtain 3 small guards with missile capability.
After last on line battle with you I tested them in single h2h.
Myu test say that at val 2 they are cheaper than guards and win easy h2h against guard if they can throw 1 javalin shot.
They are too cheap. At this ration Cost/Upgrade they are even too cheap.
To me the right cost for their ability is 300.

Marcus

why be you, when you can be new?? UPGRADES!!!

why be you, when you can be new?? UPGRADES!!!

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Re: why be you, when you can be new?? UPGRADES!!!

Re: why be you, when you can be new?? UPGRADES!!!

Re: why be you, when you can be new?? UPGRADES!!!

Re: why be you, when you can be new?? UPGRADES!!!

Re: why be you, when you can be new?? UPGRADES!!!

Re: why be you, when you can be new?? UPGRADES!!!

Re: why be you, when you can be new?? UPGRADES!!!

Re: why be you, when you can be new?? UPGRADES!!!

Re: why be you, when you can be new?? UPGRADES!!!