why be you, when you can be new?? UPGRADES!!!

**barocca** on Tue 30 Sep 2008, 22:03

First topic message reminder :

(why be you, when you can be new?? - it's a catch line from the movie "robots")

when the "others" had control of this mod they designed the units to be perfectly matched (ha) without upgrades,
a number of online battles i played i was criticised for upgrading units.

I loved the trade honour for cash option in Shogun, (I THINK we might be able to ACTUALLY DO THAT in MTW too, there is an option for "starting valour")- (a seperate issue - i will experiment later)

UPGRADES
why do we have to play at valour zero?
if we want to spend the money why cannot we hire experienced troops?

opinions please
Upgrades = Good! or Upgrades = a SIN!!

**^Marcus Cornelius^** on Mon 13 Oct 2008, 20:49

it is also my opinion that song spearmen are too cheap. They can face yari samurai and cost like yari ashigaru.
Better to low their statistics.

Marcus

**barocca** on Tue 14 Oct 2008, 00:30

i am often away from my pc when you guys post,
i have time to think on things, but no time to look at stats and do things,

please if anyone is still awake can you post the stats for yari/spear infantry (ashi, yari, korean and song)
cost. samurai. contorlled/uncontrolled.walk-run-charge. charge-attack-defence-armour-valour. shield anti-cav

can you also posts stats for the skirms and both yuan guard infantry

ht_bow

B.

**barocca** on Tue 14 Oct 2008, 07:31

song spears vs yarisams = in hold formation the yari sams have it all over the song,
even with the song having 80 men,

in engage at will the odds change, with the extra men in the song unit compensating somewhat for the yarisams better stats and morale

i suggest we add one more supporting rank to the yarisam unit, that will give them an extra attack point when charging and 1/2 an extra point in mellee as long as they stay in formation.
BUT that will apply against all units they face.

i am reluctant to weaken the song spears at this point, but if you would rather i do that then i would reduce mellee by one point only.

as for the skirms with 2 valour upgrade they become 2/3/0/1/8 plus armour pierce, (chg/att/def/arm/hon)
whereas Guard Swords are 1/3/4/4/6 (inc. shield), and Guard Pole are 2/0/6/3/6 plus armour pierce,

+2 skirms would beat the guard poles, but would lose to the guard swords

as for upgrades in general
I like the idea of permitting some limited form of upgrades, to reflect differences in the quality of the men,
and to allow for a player to tweak an army fractionally to suit their style,
BUT the columns that i had hoped were linked to & or influenced upgrade cost increments, dont have any effect
so I PROPOSE we play with a limit/rule of 1 x +1 upgrade per unit,
ie you can upgrade ONLY 1 of the three options and then by ONLY 1 point.

but while we are testing major changes such upgrades should be by consent, so we know we are not testing the base model, but the upgrade model, and we can all design our armies accordingly depending on what each individual player wants to ttry out.
i like our testign method, basically we are not testing 1 on 1 matchups, where w eline up and send 1 unit at a time into the battle,
we are live testing unit combinations and possibilities, this is a lot more fun and a lot more realistic in my opinion.
ht_bow

**^HUN^** on Tue 14 Oct 2008, 15:00

barocca wrote:song spears vs yarisams = in hold formation the yari sams have it all over the song,
even with the song having 80 men,

in engage at will the odds change, with the extra men in the song unit compensating somewhat for the yarisams better stats and morale

i suggest we add one more supporting rank to the yarisam unit, that will give them an extra attack point when charging and 1/2 an extra point in mellee as long as they stay in formation.
BUT that will apply against all units they face.

i am reluctant to weaken the song spears at this point, but if you would rather i do that then i would reduce mellee by one point only.

as for the skirms with 2 valour upgrade they become 2/3/0/1/8 plus armour pierce, (chg/att/def/arm/hon)
whereas Guard Swords are 1/3/4/4/6 (inc. shield), and Guard Pole are 2/0/6/3/6 plus armour pierce,

+2 skirms would beat the guard poles, but would lose to the guard swords

as for upgrades in general
I like the idea of permitting some limited form of upgrades, to reflect differences in the quality of the men,
and to allow for a player to tweak an army fractionally to suit their style,
BUT the columns that i had hoped were linked to & or influenced upgrade cost increments, dont have any effect
so I PROPOSE we play with a limit/rule of 1 x +1 upgrade per unit,
ie you can upgrade ONLY 1 of the three options and then by ONLY 1 point.

but while we are testing major changes such upgrades should be by consent, so we know we are not testing the base model, but the upgrade model, and we can all design our armies accordingly depending on what each individual player wants to ttry out.
i like our testign method, basically we are not testing 1 on 1 matchups, where w eline up and send 1 unit at a time into the battle,
we are live testing unit combinations and possibilities, this is a lot more fun and a lot more realistic in my opinion.

This method of testing is far more interesting, sometimes assessing how things feel at different stages of a battle is more rewarding. For this reason I have constantly changed my Mongol selection each battle, it's not about winning the battle it's about assessing the performance and noticing if things feel right or wrong.
I mentioned Song spearmen to Marcus and Glyndwr after the last test session and the fact they easily faced YS. Why buy Korean spears at 100 koku more when Song do a decent enough job?
Priced at 200 koku, they should be equal in stats with YA. No need to adjust YS at all, just give Song and YA the same stats.

The upgraded skirmisher stats should be all the evidence needed to show that the game will never be balanced as long as upgrades are a possibilty.
In reply to Marcus, I disagree. Both Song spears and Korean skirmishers are priced correctly.....at their standard level (with adjusted Song stats ofc) Skirmishers are far less effective at base level.

I have a multitude of suggestions and observations but I would prefer to keep these discussions away from the public domain.

why be you, when you can be new?? UPGRADES!!!

why be you, when you can be new?? UPGRADES!!!

Re: why be you, when you can be new?? UPGRADES!!!

Re: why be you, when you can be new?? UPGRADES!!!

Re: why be you, when you can be new?? UPGRADES!!!

Re: why be you, when you can be new?? UPGRADES!!!